Management style docs writes on people under a manager, where they know
the details better than the manager himself. Reword it so that it would be
less confusing to non-native English speakers.

Signed-off-by: Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com>
---
 Changes since v1 [1]:

   - Reword the confusing phrase (Konstantin)

 [1]: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-doc/20250826003437.7695-2-bagasdotme@gmail.com/

 Documentation/process/management-style.rst | 4 ++--
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/Documentation/process/management-style.rst b/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
index dfbc69bf49d435..bb7a69e34ef180 100644
--- a/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
+++ b/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
@@ -42,7 +42,7 @@ actually true.
 The name of the game is to **avoid** having to make a decision.  In
 particular, if somebody tells you "choose (a) or (b), we really need you
 to decide on this", you're in trouble as a manager.  The people you
-manage had better know the details better than you, so if they come to
+manage most likely know the details better than you, so if they come to
 you for a technical decision, you're screwed.  You're clearly not
 competent to make that decision for them.
 
@@ -115,7 +115,7 @@ sure as hell shouldn't encourage them by promising them that what they
 work on will be included.  Make them at least think twice before they
 embark on a big endeavor.
 
-Remember: they'd better know more about the details than you do, and
+Remember: they know the details better than you do, and
 they usually already think they have the answer to everything.  The best
 thing you can do as a manager is not to instill confidence, but rather a
 healthy dose of critical thinking on what they do.

base-commit: ee9a6691935490dc39605882b41b9452844d5e4e
-- 
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com> writes:

> Management style docs writes on people under a manager, where they know
> the details better than the manager himself. Reword it so that it would be
> less confusing to non-native English speakers.
>
> Signed-off-by: Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com>
> ---
>  Changes since v1 [1]:
>
>    - Reword the confusing phrase (Konstantin)
>
>  [1]: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-doc/20250826003437.7695-2-bagasdotme@gmail.com/
>
>  Documentation/process/management-style.rst | 4 ++--
>  1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/process/management-style.rst b/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
> index dfbc69bf49d435..bb7a69e34ef180 100644
> --- a/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
> +++ b/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
> @@ -42,7 +42,7 @@ actually true.
>  The name of the game is to **avoid** having to make a decision.  In
>  particular, if somebody tells you "choose (a) or (b), we really need you
>  to decide on this", you're in trouble as a manager.  The people you
> -manage had better know the details better than you, so if they come to
> +manage most likely know the details better than you, so if they come to
>  you for a technical decision, you're screwed.  You're clearly not

I really do not understand what it is that you are trying to fix here.
The original may not be the best English ever, but it is entirely
correct; do we really have to churn the document for this>

>  competent to make that decision for them.
>  
> @@ -115,7 +115,7 @@ sure as hell shouldn't encourage them by promising them that what they
>  work on will be included.  Make them at least think twice before they
>  embark on a big endeavor.
>  
> -Remember: they'd better know more about the details than you do, and
> +Remember: they know the details better than you do, and
>  they usually already think they have the answer to everything.  The best

Here too.

jon

Em Tue, 26 Aug 2025 23:41:46 -0600
Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net> escreveu:

> > -manage had better know the details better than you, so if they come to
> > +manage most likely know the details better than you, so if they come to
> >  you for a technical decision, you're screwed.  You're clearly not  
> 
> I really do not understand what it is that you are trying to fix here.
> The original may not be the best English ever, but it is entirely
> correct; do we really have to churn the document for this>

As a non-native English speaker, "had better know" looks really
weird on my eyes, as, at least for me, "know" is a verb.

Heh, I just discovered today by looking on a dictionary:

	https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/know

That know can informally be used as a noun (a shortcut for
knowledge?).

For me as a non-native English speaker, when one writes:

	They "most likely know"		(know here is a verb)

or:
	They "had better knowledge"	(knowledge is a name)

Things become clearer.

Heh:

	They "had better know the details better than you"

the "better" word is used twice, and yeah, this is requires more
fluency in English for a non-native speaker to get what it says.

Considering that "know" (noun) seems to be a shortcut
for "knowledge", what about:

	They "had better knowledge about the details than you"

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks,
Mauro

On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 11:33:12AM +0200, Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> As a non-native English speaker, "had better know" looks really
> weird on my eyes, as, at least for me, "know" is a verb.
> 
> Heh, I just discovered today by looking on a dictionary:
> 
> 	https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/know
> 
> That know can informally be used as a noun (a shortcut for
> knowledge?).
> 
> For me as a non-native English speaker, when one writes:
> 
> 	They "most likely know"		(know here is a verb)
> 
> or:
> 	They "had better knowledge"	(knowledge is a name)
> 
> Things become clearer.
> 
> Heh:
> 
> 	They "had better know the details better than you"
> 
> the "better" word is used twice, and yeah, this is requires more
> fluency in English for a non-native speaker to get what it says.
> 
> Considering that "know" (noun) seems to be a shortcut
> for "knowledge", what about:
> 
> 	They "had better knowledge about the details than you"

That can be alternative.

Thanks.

-- 
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

On 8/27/25 9:12 PM, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 11:33:12AM +0200, Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
>> As a non-native English speaker, "had better know" looks really
>> weird on my eyes, as, at least for me, "know" is a verb.
>>
>> Heh, I just discovered today by looking on a dictionary:
>>
>> 	https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/know
>>
>> That know can informally be used as a noun (a shortcut for
>> knowledge?).
>>
>> For me as a non-native English speaker, when one writes:
>>
>> 	They "most likely know"		(know here is a verb)
>>
>> or:
>> 	They "had better knowledge"	(knowledge is a name)
>>
>> Things become clearer.
>>
>> Heh:
>>
>> 	They "had better know the details better than you"
>>
>> the "better" word is used twice, and yeah, this is requires more
>> fluency in English for a non-native speaker to get what it says.
>>
>> Considering that "know" (noun) seems to be a shortcut
>> for "knowledge", what about:
>>
>> 	They "had better knowledge about the details than you"
> 
> That can be alternative.

Nope, afraid not. Just leave it as is or (I think) 2 people have suggested
something like "They should know better about the details than you".

-- 
~Randy

On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 09:18:57PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On 8/27/25 9:12 PM, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 11:33:12AM +0200, Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> >> Considering that "know" (noun) seems to be a shortcut
> >> for "knowledge", what about:
> >>
> >> 	They "had better knowledge about the details than you"
> > 
> > That can be alternative.
> 
> Nope, afraid not. Just leave it as is or (I think) 2 people have suggested
> something like "They should know better about the details than you".

Should I send v3 then using "should" wording as you mentioned?

Thanks.

-- 
An old man doll... just what I always wanted! - Clara

On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 06:08:19AM +0700, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 09:18:57PM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> > On 8/27/25 9:12 PM, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 11:33:12AM +0200, Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> > >> Considering that "know" (noun) seems to be a shortcut
> > >> for "knowledge", what about:
> > >>
> > >> 	They "had better knowledge about the details than you"
> > > 
> > > That can be alternative.
> > 
> > Nope, afraid not. Just leave it as is or (I think) 2 people have suggested
> > something like "They should know better about the details than you".
> 
> Should I send v3 then using "should" wording as you mentioned?

Let's leave it as is, I don't think this mail thread is being very
productive. If someone wants to rework the whole document as Jon
suggested that seems worth it, but spending time discussing this
particular sentence isn't a very good use of time.

-- 
Regards,

Laurent Pinchart

Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab+huawei@kernel.org> writes:

> As a non-native English speaker, "had better know" looks really
> weird on my eyes, as, at least for me, "know" is a verb.
>
> Heh, I just discovered today by looking on a dictionary:
>
> 	https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/know
>
> That know can informally be used as a noun (a shortcut for
> knowledge?).

"know" is a verb as used in the sentence in question too.

> For me as a non-native English speaker, when one writes:
>
> 	They "most likely know"		(know here is a verb)
>
> or:
> 	They "had better knowledge"	(knowledge is a name)
>
> Things become clearer.

But neither of those say the same thing.  Read "had better know" as
"really should know" and you get a lot closer.  I guess I didn't realize
that it was such a strange construction.

Languages are fun.

jon

Em Wed, 27 Aug 2025 05:28:52 -0600
Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net> escreveu:

> Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab+huawei@kernel.org> writes:
> 
> > As a non-native English speaker, "had better know" looks really
> > weird on my eyes, as, at least for me, "know" is a verb.
> >
> > Heh, I just discovered today by looking on a dictionary:
> >
> > 	https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/know
> >
> > That know can informally be used as a noun (a shortcut for
> > knowledge?).  
> 
> "know" is a verb as used in the sentence in question too.

That's new to me. I would expect that a verb locution like
that to have the final verb ending with -ing, written in the
past participle, or have "to" before it. After looking for this 
particular grammatical construction, it seems that "had better"
is an exception:

	https://teachtranslatetravelrepeat.com/semi-modal-verbs-had-better/

where the main verb remains in infinitive without "to" prefix.

> > For me as a non-native English speaker, when one writes:
> >
> > 	They "most likely know"		(know here is a verb)
> >
> > or:
> > 	They "had better knowledge"	(knowledge is a name)
> >
> > Things become clearer.  
> 
> But neither of those say the same thing.  Read "had better know" as
> "really should know" and you get a lot closer.  I guess I didn't realize
> that it was such a strange construction.

I bet very few non-native English speaker developers would understand it
like that.

Thanks,
Mauro

Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab+huawei@kernel.org> writes:

>> But neither of those say the same thing.  Read "had better know" as
>> "really should know" and you get a lot closer.  I guess I didn't realize
>> that it was such a strange construction.
>
> I bet very few non-native English speaker developers would understand it
> like that.

Even though a non-native developer wrote it :)

We can tweak it, but I'd rather not change the meaning, and, more to the
point, that document needs significant work rather than low-level
tweaking.

jon

On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 07:05:27AM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote:
> Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab+huawei@kernel.org> writes:

> We can tweak it, but I'd rather not change the meaning, and, more to the
> point, that document needs significant work rather than low-level
> tweaking.

On a better look on the entire document, I woudn't change a single
word... IMO, this is a masterpiece where any changes would damage
it... Every time I read this, it makes me laugh so hard that tears
roll down my face :-D

While it brings some real tips, it was written to be annedotical.

So, from my side, I would just keep it as-is, even if someone
write another document better describing Kernel management
style.

-- 
Thanks,
Mauro

On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 07:05:27AM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote:
> Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab+huawei@kernel.org> writes:
> 
> >> But neither of those say the same thing.  Read "had better know" as
> >> "really should know" and you get a lot closer.  I guess I didn't realize
> >> that it was such a strange construction.
> >
> > I bet very few non-native English speaker developers would understand it
> > like that.
> 
> Even though a non-native developer wrote it :)

:-) 

Well, I suppose that non-natives raising kids in US would use this a lot,
as, from the examples I saw about such usage, it sounds to me exactly
the kind of language that parents would say a lot to their sibilings ;-)

> We can tweak it, but I'd rather not change the meaning,

Sure. 

> and, more to the
> point, that document needs significant work rather than low-level
> tweaking.

Fully agreed. Seeking it at historic tree, the original text was
written on 2004. Surely management style changed a little bit over
all those years ;-)

Thanks,
Mauro

On 8/26/25 9:48 PM, Bagas Sanjaya wrote:
> Management style docs writes on people under a manager, where they know
> the details better than the manager himself. Reword it so that it would be
> less confusing to non-native English speakers.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Bagas Sanjaya <bagasdotme@gmail.com>
> ---
>  Changes since v1 [1]:
> 
>    - Reword the confusing phrase (Konstantin)
> 
>  [1]: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-doc/20250826003437.7695-2-bagasdotme@gmail.com/
> 
>  Documentation/process/management-style.rst | 4 ++--
>  1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/Documentation/process/management-style.rst b/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
> index dfbc69bf49d435..bb7a69e34ef180 100644
> --- a/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
> +++ b/Documentation/process/management-style.rst
> @@ -42,7 +42,7 @@ actually true.
>  The name of the game is to **avoid** having to make a decision.  In
>  particular, if somebody tells you "choose (a) or (b), we really need you
>  to decide on this", you're in trouble as a manager.  The people you
> -manage had better know the details better than you, so if they come to
> +manage most likely know the details better than you, so if they come to

Reviewed-by: Randy Dunlap <rdunlap@infradead.org>

although I would have said
+manage should know the details better than you, so if they come to

Anyway, thanks for the better wording.

>  you for a technical decision, you're screwed.  You're clearly not
>  competent to make that decision for them.
>  
> @@ -115,7 +115,7 @@ sure as hell shouldn't encourage them by promising them that what they
>  work on will be included.  Make them at least think twice before they
>  embark on a big endeavor.
>  
> -Remember: they'd better know more about the details than you do, and
> +Remember: they know the details better than you do, and
>  they usually already think they have the answer to everything.  The best
>  thing you can do as a manager is not to instill confidence, but rather a
>  healthy dose of critical thinking on what they do.
> 
> base-commit: ee9a6691935490dc39605882b41b9452844d5e4e

-- 
~Randy