xen/arch/arm/vpl011.c | 2 +- xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c | 26 ++++++++++++++++---------- xen/arch/x86/pv/shim.c | 2 +- xen/common/domain.c | 18 ++++++++++-------- xen/drivers/char/console.c | 24 ++++++++++++++---------- xen/include/xen/sched.h | 27 +++++++++++++++++---------- 6 files changed, 59 insertions(+), 40 deletions(-)
From: Denis Mukhin <dmukhin@ford.com>
Introduce domain_console for grouping data structures used for integrating
domain's diagnostic console with Xen's console driver.
Group all pbuf-related data structures under domain_console. Rename the moved
fields to plain .buf, .idx and .lock names, since all uses of the fields are
touched.
Bump the domain console buffer size to the closest power of 2 (256) and
rename the symbol to DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE.
Move d->console->buf management under CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG when the
HYPERCALL_console_io handler is enabled.
Finally, update the domain_console allocation code.
No functional change.
Signed-off-by: Denis Mukhin <dmukhin@ford.com>
---
Changes since v1:
- added new struct domain_console
- updated allocation code for domain's console data structure
- bumped the size of the domain's output buffer to 256
- put domain's console buffer treatment under CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
I addressed most of the v1 feedback here, since all fields of the domain's
console data structures are touched.
Domain's console input buffer question is not addressed because it looks like a
separate (big) patch.
Link to v1: https://lore.kernel.org/xen-devel/20250606194937.2412579-1-dmukhin@ford.com/
Link to CI: https://gitlab.com/xen-project/people/dmukhin/xen/-/pipelines/1870179848
---
xen/arch/arm/vpl011.c | 2 +-
xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c | 26 ++++++++++++++++----------
xen/arch/x86/pv/shim.c | 2 +-
xen/common/domain.c | 18 ++++++++++--------
xen/drivers/char/console.c | 24 ++++++++++++++----------
xen/include/xen/sched.h | 27 +++++++++++++++++----------
6 files changed, 59 insertions(+), 40 deletions(-)
diff --git a/xen/arch/arm/vpl011.c b/xen/arch/arm/vpl011.c
index 2b6f2a09bca6..f4a840da10c5 100644
--- a/xen/arch/arm/vpl011.c
+++ b/xen/arch/arm/vpl011.c
@@ -713,7 +713,7 @@ int domain_vpl011_init(struct domain *d, struct vpl011_init_info *info)
}
else
{
- d->console.input_allowed = true;
+ d->console->input_allowed = true;
vpl011->backend_in_domain = false;
vpl011->backend.xen = xzalloc(struct vpl011_xen_backend);
diff --git a/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c b/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c
index 056360d5fe50..4295d98ddeb1 100644
--- a/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c
+++ b/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c
@@ -559,7 +559,6 @@ void hvm_do_resume(struct vcpu *v)
static int cf_check hvm_print_line(
int dir, unsigned int port, unsigned int bytes, uint32_t *val)
{
- struct domain *cd = current->domain;
char c = *val;
ASSERT(bytes == 1 && port == XEN_HVM_DEBUGCONS_IOPORT);
@@ -570,17 +569,24 @@ static int cf_check hvm_print_line(
if ( !is_console_printable(c) )
return X86EMUL_OKAY;
-
- spin_lock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
- if ( c != '\n' )
- cd->pbuf[cd->pbuf_idx++] = c;
- if ( (cd->pbuf_idx == (DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE - 1)) || (c == '\n') )
+#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
+ else
{
- cd->pbuf[cd->pbuf_idx] = '\0';
- guest_printk(cd, XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s\n", cd->pbuf);
- cd->pbuf_idx = 0;
+ struct domain *cd = current->domain;
+ struct domain_console *cons = cd->console;
+
+ spin_lock(&cons->lock);
+ if ( c != '\n' )
+ cons->buf[cons->idx++] = c;
+ if ( (cons->idx == (DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE - 1)) || (c == '\n') )
+ {
+ cons->buf[cons->idx] = '\0';
+ guest_printk(cd, XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s\n", cons->buf);
+ cons->idx = 0;
+ }
+ spin_unlock(&cons->lock);
}
- spin_unlock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
+#endif
return X86EMUL_OKAY;
}
diff --git a/xen/arch/x86/pv/shim.c b/xen/arch/x86/pv/shim.c
index bc2a7dd5fae5..bd29c53a2d34 100644
--- a/xen/arch/x86/pv/shim.c
+++ b/xen/arch/x86/pv/shim.c
@@ -239,7 +239,7 @@ void __init pv_shim_setup_dom(struct domain *d, l4_pgentry_t *l4start,
*/
d->max_pages = domain_tot_pages(d);
- d->console.input_allowed = true;
+ d->console->input_allowed = true;
}
static void write_start_info(struct domain *d)
diff --git a/xen/common/domain.c b/xen/common/domain.c
index e566a1874795..578eb587e27e 100644
--- a/xen/common/domain.c
+++ b/xen/common/domain.c
@@ -669,7 +669,7 @@ static void _domain_destroy(struct domain *d)
BUG_ON(!d->is_dying);
BUG_ON(atomic_read(&d->refcnt) != DOMAIN_DESTROYED);
- xfree(d->pbuf);
+ xfree(d->console);
argo_destroy(d);
@@ -800,6 +800,11 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
if ( (d = alloc_domain_struct()) == NULL )
return ERR_PTR(-ENOMEM);
+ err = -ENOMEM;
+ d->console = xvzalloc(typeof(*d->console));
+ if ( !d->console )
+ goto fail;
+
/* Sort out our idea of is_system_domain(). */
d->domain_id = domid;
d->unique_id = get_unique_id();
@@ -832,7 +837,7 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
if ( old_hwdom )
old_hwdom->cdf &= ~CDF_hardware;
- d->console.input_allowed = true;
+ d->console->input_allowed = true;
}
/* Holding CDF_* internal flags. */
@@ -862,7 +867,9 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
spin_lock_init(&d->shutdown_lock);
d->shutdown_code = SHUTDOWN_CODE_INVALID;
- spin_lock_init(&d->pbuf_lock);
+#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
+ spin_lock_init(&d->console->lock);
+#endif
rwlock_init(&d->vnuma_rwlock);
@@ -955,11 +962,6 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
if ( (err = argo_init(d)) != 0 )
goto fail;
- err = -ENOMEM;
- d->pbuf = xzalloc_array(char, DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE);
- if ( !d->pbuf )
- goto fail;
-
if ( (err = sched_init_domain(d, config->cpupool_id)) != 0 )
goto fail;
diff --git a/xen/drivers/char/console.c b/xen/drivers/char/console.c
index 616f4968b004..61a804c09a50 100644
--- a/xen/drivers/char/console.c
+++ b/xen/drivers/char/console.c
@@ -524,7 +524,7 @@ struct domain *console_get_domain(void)
if ( !d )
return NULL;
- if ( d->console.input_allowed )
+ if ( d->console->input_allowed )
return d;
rcu_unlock_domain(d);
@@ -567,7 +567,7 @@ static void console_switch_input(void)
{
rcu_unlock_domain(d);
- if ( !d->console.input_allowed )
+ if ( !d->console->input_allowed )
continue;
console_rx = next_rx;
@@ -754,9 +754,11 @@ static long guest_console_write(XEN_GUEST_HANDLE_PARAM(char) buffer,
console_send(kbuf, kcount, flags);
nrspin_unlock_irq(&console_lock);
}
+#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
else
{
char *kin = kbuf, *kout = kbuf, c;
+ struct domain_console *cons = cd->console;
/* Strip non-printable characters */
do
@@ -769,23 +771,25 @@ static long guest_console_write(XEN_GUEST_HANDLE_PARAM(char) buffer,
} while ( --kcount > 0 );
*kout = '\0';
- spin_lock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
+ spin_lock(&cons->lock);
kcount = kin - kbuf;
if ( c != '\n' &&
- (cd->pbuf_idx + (kout - kbuf) < (DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE - 1)) )
+ cons->idx + kout - kbuf < DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE - 1 )
{
/* buffer the output until a newline */
- memcpy(cd->pbuf + cd->pbuf_idx, kbuf, kout - kbuf);
- cd->pbuf_idx += (kout - kbuf);
+ memcpy(cons->buf + cons->idx, kbuf, kout - kbuf);
+ cons->idx += (kout - kbuf);
}
else
{
- cd->pbuf[cd->pbuf_idx] = '\0';
- guest_printk(cd, XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s%s\n", cd->pbuf, kbuf);
- cd->pbuf_idx = 0;
+ cons->buf[cons->idx] = '\0';
+ guest_printk(cd,
+ XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s%s\n", cons->buf, kbuf);
+ cons->idx = 0;
}
- spin_unlock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
+ spin_unlock(&cons->lock);
}
+#endif
guest_handle_add_offset(buffer, kcount);
count -= kcount;
diff --git a/xen/include/xen/sched.h b/xen/include/xen/sched.h
index fe53d4fab7ba..388ba70a41a9 100644
--- a/xen/include/xen/sched.h
+++ b/xen/include/xen/sched.h
@@ -371,6 +371,22 @@ struct evtchn_port_ops;
#define MAX_NR_IOREQ_SERVERS 8
+/* Arbitrary value; must be a multiple of the cacheline size. */
+#define DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE 256
+
+/* Domain console settings. */
+struct domain_console {
+#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
+ /* hvm_print_line() and guest_console_write() logging. */
+ char *buf;
+ unsigned int idx;
+ spinlock_t lock;
+#endif /* CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG */
+
+ /* Permission to take ownership of the physical console input. */
+ bool input_allowed;
+};
+
struct domain
{
domid_t domain_id;
@@ -562,12 +578,6 @@ struct domain
/* Control-plane tools handle for this domain. */
xen_domain_handle_t handle;
- /* hvm_print_line() and guest_console_write() logging. */
-#define DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE 200
- char *pbuf;
- unsigned int pbuf_idx;
- spinlock_t pbuf_lock;
-
/* OProfile support. */
struct xenoprof *xenoprof;
@@ -653,10 +663,7 @@ struct domain
#endif
/* Console settings. */
- struct {
- /* Permission to take ownership of the physical console input. */
- bool input_allowed;
- } console;
+ struct domain_console *console;
} __aligned(PAGE_SIZE);
static inline struct page_list_head *page_to_list(
--
2.34.1On 17.06.2025 03:27, dmkhn@proton.me wrote:
> From: Denis Mukhin <dmukhin@ford.com>
>
> Introduce domain_console for grouping data structures used for integrating
> domain's diagnostic console with Xen's console driver.
>
> Group all pbuf-related data structures under domain_console. Rename the moved
> fields to plain .buf, .idx and .lock names, since all uses of the fields are
> touched.
>
> Bump the domain console buffer size to the closest power of 2 (256) and
> rename the symbol to DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE.
>
> Move d->console->buf management under CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG when the
> HYPERCALL_console_io handler is enabled.
This, if at all, needs to be a separate change (with its own justification).
I for one don't think VERBOSE_DEBUG is intended to control any kind of guest
output.
> --- a/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c
> +++ b/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c
> @@ -559,7 +559,6 @@ void hvm_do_resume(struct vcpu *v)
> static int cf_check hvm_print_line(
> int dir, unsigned int port, unsigned int bytes, uint32_t *val)
> {
> - struct domain *cd = current->domain;
> char c = *val;
>
> ASSERT(bytes == 1 && port == XEN_HVM_DEBUGCONS_IOPORT);
> @@ -570,17 +569,24 @@ static int cf_check hvm_print_line(
>
> if ( !is_console_printable(c) )
> return X86EMUL_OKAY;
After this "return" ...
> -
> - spin_lock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
> - if ( c != '\n' )
> - cd->pbuf[cd->pbuf_idx++] = c;
> - if ( (cd->pbuf_idx == (DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE - 1)) || (c == '\n') )
> +#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
> + else
... there's no point to have "else" here.
> {
> - cd->pbuf[cd->pbuf_idx] = '\0';
> - guest_printk(cd, XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s\n", cd->pbuf);
> - cd->pbuf_idx = 0;
> + struct domain *cd = current->domain;
We normally name such a variable d. It also looks as if this could be pointer-
to-const.
> + struct domain_console *cons = cd->console;
> +
> + spin_lock(&cons->lock);
> + if ( c != '\n' )
> + cons->buf[cons->idx++] = c;
> + if ( (cons->idx == (DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE - 1)) || (c == '\n') )
> + {
> + cons->buf[cons->idx] = '\0';
> + guest_printk(cd, XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s\n", cons->buf);
> + cons->idx = 0;
> + }
> + spin_unlock(&cons->lock);
> }
> - spin_unlock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
> +#endif
None of the re-indentation is really warranted here (and will likely go away
anyway once the #ifdef is dropped).
> --- a/xen/common/domain.c
> +++ b/xen/common/domain.c
> @@ -669,7 +669,7 @@ static void _domain_destroy(struct domain *d)
> BUG_ON(!d->is_dying);
> BUG_ON(atomic_read(&d->refcnt) != DOMAIN_DESTROYED);
>
> - xfree(d->pbuf);
> + xfree(d->console);
>
> argo_destroy(d);
>
> @@ -800,6 +800,11 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
> if ( (d = alloc_domain_struct()) == NULL )
> return ERR_PTR(-ENOMEM);
>
> + err = -ENOMEM;
> + d->console = xvzalloc(typeof(*d->console));
> + if ( !d->console )
> + goto fail;
This definitely need to move down some, at least ...
> /* Sort out our idea of is_system_domain(). */
> d->domain_id = domid;
> d->unique_id = get_unique_id();
... past here. There absolutely must not be struct domain instances be
passed around (see e.g. the call to sched_destroy_domain()) without the
domain ID set. It's hard to see ...
> @@ -862,7 +867,9 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
> spin_lock_init(&d->shutdown_lock);
> d->shutdown_code = SHUTDOWN_CODE_INVALID;
>
> - spin_lock_init(&d->pbuf_lock);
> +#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
> + spin_lock_init(&d->console->lock);
> +#endif
.. why here or ...
> @@ -955,11 +962,6 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
> if ( (err = argo_init(d)) != 0 )
> goto fail;
>
> - err = -ENOMEM;
> - d->pbuf = xzalloc_array(char, DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE);
> - if ( !d->pbuf )
> - goto fail;
... even here wouldn't be early enough anyway.
And btw - where did this buffer allocation move? I don't see anywhere
that d->console->buf would now be initialized. (However, see below.)
> --- a/xen/include/xen/sched.h
> +++ b/xen/include/xen/sched.h
> @@ -371,6 +371,22 @@ struct evtchn_port_ops;
>
> #define MAX_NR_IOREQ_SERVERS 8
>
> +/* Arbitrary value; must be a multiple of the cacheline size. */
> +#define DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE 256
Where does the relationship with cache line size come from? What if
Xen was to run on hardware (whichever arch) with 512-byte cache lines?
> +/* Domain console settings. */
> +struct domain_console {
> +#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
> + /* hvm_print_line() and guest_console_write() logging. */
> + char *buf;
To avoid the need to do yet another separate allocation, how about ...
> + unsigned int idx;
> + spinlock_t lock;
> +#endif /* CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG */
> +
> + /* Permission to take ownership of the physical console input. */
> + bool input_allowed;
char buf[DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE];
Ultimately this would allow the buffer size to be e.g. command line
controlled (if so desired), by then simply converting to a flexible
array member.
Jan
On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:48:10AM +0200, Jan Beulich wrote:
> On 17.06.2025 03:27, dmkhn@proton.me wrote:
> > From: Denis Mukhin <dmukhin@ford.com>
> >
> > Introduce domain_console for grouping data structures used for integrating
> > domain's diagnostic console with Xen's console driver.
> >
> > Group all pbuf-related data structures under domain_console. Rename the moved
> > fields to plain .buf, .idx and .lock names, since all uses of the fields are
> > touched.
> >
> > Bump the domain console buffer size to the closest power of 2 (256) and
> > rename the symbol to DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE.
> >
> > Move d->console->buf management under CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG when the
> > HYPERCALL_console_io handler is enabled.
>
> This, if at all, needs to be a separate change (with its own justification).
> I for one don't think VERBOSE_DEBUG is intended to control any kind of guest
> output.
>
> > --- a/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c
> > +++ b/xen/arch/x86/hvm/hvm.c
> > @@ -559,7 +559,6 @@ void hvm_do_resume(struct vcpu *v)
> > static int cf_check hvm_print_line(
> > int dir, unsigned int port, unsigned int bytes, uint32_t *val)
> > {
> > - struct domain *cd = current->domain;
> > char c = *val;
> >
> > ASSERT(bytes == 1 && port == XEN_HVM_DEBUGCONS_IOPORT);
> > @@ -570,17 +569,24 @@ static int cf_check hvm_print_line(
> >
> > if ( !is_console_printable(c) )
> > return X86EMUL_OKAY;
>
> After this "return" ...
>
> > -
> > - spin_lock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
> > - if ( c != '\n' )
> > - cd->pbuf[cd->pbuf_idx++] = c;
> > - if ( (cd->pbuf_idx == (DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE - 1)) || (c == '\n') )
> > +#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
> > + else
>
> ... there's no point to have "else" here.
>
> > {
> > - cd->pbuf[cd->pbuf_idx] = '\0';
> > - guest_printk(cd, XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s\n", cd->pbuf);
> > - cd->pbuf_idx = 0;
> > + struct domain *cd = current->domain;
>
> We normally name such a variable d. It also looks as if this could be pointer-
> to-const.
>
> > + struct domain_console *cons = cd->console;
> > +
> > + spin_lock(&cons->lock);
> > + if ( c != '\n' )
> > + cons->buf[cons->idx++] = c;
> > + if ( (cons->idx == (DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE - 1)) || (c == '\n') )
> > + {
> > + cons->buf[cons->idx] = '\0';
> > + guest_printk(cd, XENLOG_G_DEBUG "%s\n", cons->buf);
> > + cons->idx = 0;
> > + }
> > + spin_unlock(&cons->lock);
> > }
> > - spin_unlock(&cd->pbuf_lock);
> > +#endif
>
> None of the re-indentation is really warranted here (and will likely go away
> anyway once the #ifdef is dropped).
>
> > --- a/xen/common/domain.c
> > +++ b/xen/common/domain.c
> > @@ -669,7 +669,7 @@ static void _domain_destroy(struct domain *d)
> > BUG_ON(!d->is_dying);
> > BUG_ON(atomic_read(&d->refcnt) != DOMAIN_DESTROYED);
> >
> > - xfree(d->pbuf);
> > + xfree(d->console);
> >
> > argo_destroy(d);
> >
> > @@ -800,6 +800,11 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
> > if ( (d = alloc_domain_struct()) == NULL )
> > return ERR_PTR(-ENOMEM);
> >
> > + err = -ENOMEM;
> > + d->console = xvzalloc(typeof(*d->console));
> > + if ( !d->console )
> > + goto fail;
>
> This definitely need to move down some, at least ...
>
> > /* Sort out our idea of is_system_domain(). */
> > d->domain_id = domid;
> > d->unique_id = get_unique_id();
>
> ... past here. There absolutely must not be struct domain instances be
> passed around (see e.g. the call to sched_destroy_domain()) without the
> domain ID set. It's hard to see ...
>
> > @@ -862,7 +867,9 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
> > spin_lock_init(&d->shutdown_lock);
> > d->shutdown_code = SHUTDOWN_CODE_INVALID;
> >
> > - spin_lock_init(&d->pbuf_lock);
> > +#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
> > + spin_lock_init(&d->console->lock);
> > +#endif
>
> .. why here or ...
>
> > @@ -955,11 +962,6 @@ struct domain *domain_create(domid_t domid,
> > if ( (err = argo_init(d)) != 0 )
> > goto fail;
> >
> > - err = -ENOMEM;
> > - d->pbuf = xzalloc_array(char, DOMAIN_PBUF_SIZE);
> > - if ( !d->pbuf )
> > - goto fail;
>
> ... even here wouldn't be early enough anyway.
>
> And btw - where did this buffer allocation move? I don't see anywhere
> that d->console->buf would now be initialized. (However, see below.)
>
> > --- a/xen/include/xen/sched.h
> > +++ b/xen/include/xen/sched.h
> > @@ -371,6 +371,22 @@ struct evtchn_port_ops;
> >
> > #define MAX_NR_IOREQ_SERVERS 8
> >
> > +/* Arbitrary value; must be a multiple of the cacheline size. */
> > +#define DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE 256
>
> Where does the relationship with cache line size come from? What if
> Xen was to run on hardware (whichever arch) with 512-byte cache lines?
>
> > +/* Domain console settings. */
> > +struct domain_console {
> > +#ifdef CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG
> > + /* hvm_print_line() and guest_console_write() logging. */
> > + char *buf;
>
> To avoid the need to do yet another separate allocation, how about ...
>
> > + unsigned int idx;
> > + spinlock_t lock;
> > +#endif /* CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG */
> > +
> > + /* Permission to take ownership of the physical console input. */
> > + bool input_allowed;
>
> char buf[DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE];
>
> Ultimately this would allow the buffer size to be e.g. command line
> controlled (if so desired), by then simply converting to a flexible
> array member.
Whoops, apologies for the bogus change.
Looks like I posted from the wrong branch.
>
> Jan
On 17.06.2025 11:48, Jan Beulich wrote: > On 17.06.2025 03:27, dmkhn@proton.me wrote: >> From: Denis Mukhin <dmukhin@ford.com> >> >> Introduce domain_console for grouping data structures used for integrating >> domain's diagnostic console with Xen's console driver. >> >> Group all pbuf-related data structures under domain_console. Rename the moved >> fields to plain .buf, .idx and .lock names, since all uses of the fields are >> touched. >> >> Bump the domain console buffer size to the closest power of 2 (256) and >> rename the symbol to DOMAIN_CONSOLE_BUF_SIZE. >> >> Move d->console->buf management under CONFIG_VERBOSE_DEBUG when the >> HYPERCALL_console_io handler is enabled. > > This, if at all, needs to be a separate change (with its own justification). > I for one don't think VERBOSE_DEBUG is intended to control any kind of guest > output. Hmm, the option's help text indeed says it mixes two unrelated things. Maybe this wants untangling. With a behavioral change like the one you suggest, that help text would need updating in any event, though. Jan
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