Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."

One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
playback doesn't have that problem."

But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
be fixed.

Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
---
This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
too.

 audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
--- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
+++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
@@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
 static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
 {
     if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
-        apdo->try_poll = true;
+        apdo->try_poll = false;
         apdo->has_try_poll = true;
     }
 }
-- 
2.41.3

On Sunday, March 16, 2025 1:20:46 AM CET BALATON Zoltan wrote:
> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
> 
> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
> playback doesn't have that problem."
> 
> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
> be fixed.
> 
> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
> ---
> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
> too.
> 
>  audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
> 
> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
>  static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
>  {
>      if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
>          apdo->has_try_poll = true;
>      }
>  }
> 

Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAICS if polling is not used then no state
changes would be handled, no? At least I don't see any snd_pcm_state() call
outside of alsa_poll_handler().

/Christian

On Sun, 23 Mar 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> On Sunday, March 16, 2025 1:20:46 AM CET BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
>> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
>> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
>> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
>> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
>> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
>> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
>> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
>> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
>>
>> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
>> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
>> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
>> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
>> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
>> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
>> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
>> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
>> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
>> playback doesn't have that problem."
>>
>> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
>> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
>> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
>> be fixed.
>>
>> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
>> ---
>> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
>> too.
>>
>>  audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
>>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
>>
>> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
>> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
>> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
>>  static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
>>  {
>>      if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
>> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
>> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
>>          apdo->has_try_poll = true;
>>      }
>>  }
>>
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAICS if polling is not used then no state
> changes would be handled, no? At least I don't see any snd_pcm_state() call
> outside of alsa_poll_handler().

I have no idea but this fixes the problem (and does the same that can be 
also done from command line but nobody can find that command line option) 
so unless somebody has a better idea could this be merged as a fix for 
now?

Regards,
BALATON Zoltan

On Monday, March 31, 2025 3:05:24 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 16, 2025 1:20:46 AM CET BALATON Zoltan wrote:
> >> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
> >> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
> >> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
> >> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
> >> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
> >> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
> >> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
> >> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
> >> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
> >>
> >> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
> >> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
> >> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
> >> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
> >> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
> >> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
> >> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
> >> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
> >> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
> >> playback doesn't have that problem."
> >>
> >> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
> >> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
> >> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
> >> be fixed.
> >>
> >> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
> >> ---
> >> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
> >> too.
> >>
> >>  audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
> >>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
> >>
> >> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> >> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
> >> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
> >> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> >> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
> >>  static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
> >>  {
> >>      if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
> >> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
> >> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
> >>          apdo->has_try_poll = true;
> >>      }
> >>  }
> >>
> >
> > Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAICS if polling is not used then no state
> > changes would be handled, no? At least I don't see any snd_pcm_state() call
> > outside of alsa_poll_handler().
> 
> I have no idea but this fixes the problem (and does the same that can be 
> also done from command line but nobody can find that command line option) 
> so unless somebody has a better idea could this be merged as a fix for 
> now?

Well, I understand that if fixes the misbehaviour you encountered. But how
helpful would it be if it then breaks behaviour for other people instead?

I think it would be better to add a 2nd patch that would handle state changes
in callback mode. That would satisfy both groups of people. AFAICS
snd_pcm_state() can be called both in polling mode and callback mode.

Just my 2 cents. Of course it's up to Gerd to decide.

/Christian

On Fri, 4 Apr 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> On Monday, March 31, 2025 3:05:24 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 16, 2025 1:20:46 AM CET BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>>>> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
>>>> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
>>>> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
>>>> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
>>>> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
>>>> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
>>>> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
>>>> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
>>>> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
>>>>
>>>> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
>>>> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
>>>> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
>>>> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
>>>> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
>>>> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
>>>> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
>>>> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
>>>> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
>>>> playback doesn't have that problem."
>>>>
>>>> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
>>>> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
>>>> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
>>>> be fixed.
>>>>
>>>> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
>>>> ---
>>>> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>>  audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
>>>>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
>>>>
>>>> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
>>>> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
>>>>  static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
>>>>  {
>>>>      if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
>>>> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
>>>> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
>>>>          apdo->has_try_poll = true;
>>>>      }
>>>>  }
>>>>
>>>
>>> Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAICS if polling is not used then no state
>>> changes would be handled, no? At least I don't see any snd_pcm_state() call
>>> outside of alsa_poll_handler().
>>
>> I have no idea but this fixes the problem (and does the same that can be
>> also done from command line but nobody can find that command line option)
>> so unless somebody has a better idea could this be merged as a fix for
>> now?
>
> Well, I understand that if fixes the misbehaviour you encountered. But how
> helpful would it be if it then breaks behaviour for other people instead?

What behaviour would it break and how?

> I think it would be better to add a 2nd patch that would handle state changes
> in callback mode. That would satisfy both groups of people. AFAICS
> snd_pcm_state() can be called both in polling mode and callback mode.

I can't do that because I don't quite know neither alsa nor audio in QEMU 
so I have no idea what to do. Can you give more clues?

> Just my 2 cents. Of course it's up to Gerd to decide.

If you know it would break something I agree it should be fixed and I can 
try but I could not reproduce any breakage and most people likely use 
other audio backends so unlikely to encounter problems with alsa.

Regards,
BALATON Zoltan

On Friday, April 4, 2025 1:34:27 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Apr 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> > On Monday, March 31, 2025 3:05:24 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
> >> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, March 16, 2025 1:20:46 AM CET BALATON Zoltan wrote:
> >>>> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
> >>>> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
> >>>> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
> >>>> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
> >>>> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
> >>>> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
> >>>> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
> >>>> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
> >>>> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
> >>>>
> >>>> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
> >>>> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
> >>>> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
> >>>> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
> >>>> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
> >>>> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
> >>>> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
> >>>> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
> >>>> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
> >>>> playback doesn't have that problem."
> >>>>
> >>>> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
> >>>> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
> >>>> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
> >>>> be fixed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
> >>>> too.
> >>>>
> >>>>  audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
> >>>>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
> >>>>
> >>>> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> >>>> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
> >>>> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
> >>>> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> >>>> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
> >>>>  static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
> >>>>  {
> >>>>      if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
> >>>> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
> >>>> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
> >>>>          apdo->has_try_poll = true;
> >>>>      }
> >>>>  }
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAICS if polling is not used then no state
> >>> changes would be handled, no? At least I don't see any snd_pcm_state() call
> >>> outside of alsa_poll_handler().
> >>
> >> I have no idea but this fixes the problem (and does the same that can be
> >> also done from command line but nobody can find that command line option)
> >> so unless somebody has a better idea could this be merged as a fix for
> >> now?
> >
> > Well, I understand that if fixes the misbehaviour you encountered. But how
> > helpful would it be if it then breaks behaviour for other people instead?
> 
> What behaviour would it break and how?

There are only a bunch of ALSA states handled right now in the QEMU Alsa
driver (see alsa_poll_handler()):

    state = snd_pcm_state (hlp->handle);
    switch (state) {
    case SND_PCM_STATE_SETUP:
        alsa_recover (hlp->handle);
        break;

    case SND_PCM_STATE_XRUN:
        alsa_recover (hlp->handle);
        break;

    case SND_PCM_STATE_SUSPENDED:
        alsa_resume (hlp->handle);
        break;

    case SND_PCM_STATE_PREPARED:
        audio_run(hlp->s, "alsa run (prepared)");
        break;

    case SND_PCM_STATE_RUNNING:
        audio_run(hlp->s, "alsa run (running)");
        break;

For instance in poll mode it recovers in case of an xrun, which happens on
audio output if the audio output data was not delivered by the application in
time.

The other case is when the system was suspended (standby). It should also
recover the audio session here.

Now I haven't tested whether these would work in callback mode right now, but
looking at the code suggests that they might not.

> > I think it would be better to add a 2nd patch that would handle state changes
> > in callback mode. That would satisfy both groups of people. AFAICS
> > snd_pcm_state() can be called both in polling mode and callback mode.
> 
> I can't do that because I don't quite know neither alsa nor audio in QEMU 
> so I have no idea what to do. Can you give more clues?

Well, as a starting point you might try whether these cases described above
would still work in callback mode. Maybe it is even working, who knows.

/Christian

> > Just my 2 cents. Of course it's up to Gerd to decide.
> 
> If you know it would break something I agree it should be fixed and I can 
> try but I could not reproduce any breakage and most people likely use 
> other audio backends so unlikely to encounter problems with alsa.
> 
> Regards,
> BALATON Zoltan

On Tue, 8 Apr 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> On Friday, April 4, 2025 1:34:27 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Apr 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 31, 2025 3:05:24 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 16, 2025 1:20:46 AM CET BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>>>>>> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
>>>>>> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
>>>>>> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
>>>>>> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
>>>>>> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
>>>>>> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
>>>>>> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
>>>>>> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
>>>>>> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
>>>>>> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
>>>>>> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
>>>>>> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
>>>>>> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
>>>>>> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
>>>>>> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
>>>>>> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
>>>>>> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
>>>>>> playback doesn't have that problem."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
>>>>>> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
>>>>>> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
>>>>>> be fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
>>>>>>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>>>> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
>>>>>> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>>>> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>>>> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
>>>>>>  static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
>>>>>>  {
>>>>>>      if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
>>>>>> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
>>>>>> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
>>>>>>          apdo->has_try_poll = true;
>>>>>>      }
>>>>>>  }
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAICS if polling is not used then no state
>>>>> changes would be handled, no? At least I don't see any snd_pcm_state() call
>>>>> outside of alsa_poll_handler().
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea but this fixes the problem (and does the same that can be
>>>> also done from command line but nobody can find that command line option)
>>>> so unless somebody has a better idea could this be merged as a fix for
>>>> now?
>>>
>>> Well, I understand that if fixes the misbehaviour you encountered. But how
>>> helpful would it be if it then breaks behaviour for other people instead?
>>
>> What behaviour would it break and how?
>
> There are only a bunch of ALSA states handled right now in the QEMU Alsa
> driver (see alsa_poll_handler()):
>
>    state = snd_pcm_state (hlp->handle);
>    switch (state) {
>    case SND_PCM_STATE_SETUP:
>        alsa_recover (hlp->handle);
>        break;
>
>    case SND_PCM_STATE_XRUN:
>        alsa_recover (hlp->handle);
>        break;
>
>    case SND_PCM_STATE_SUSPENDED:
>        alsa_resume (hlp->handle);
>        break;
>
>    case SND_PCM_STATE_PREPARED:
>        audio_run(hlp->s, "alsa run (prepared)");
>        break;
>
>    case SND_PCM_STATE_RUNNING:
>        audio_run(hlp->s, "alsa run (running)");
>        break;
>
> For instance in poll mode it recovers in case of an xrun, which happens on
> audio output if the audio output data was not delivered by the application in
> time.
>
> The other case is when the system was suspended (standby). It should also
> recover the audio session here.
>
> Now I haven't tested whether these would work in callback mode right now, but
> looking at the code suggests that they might not.
>
>>> I think it would be better to add a 2nd patch that would handle state changes
>>> in callback mode. That would satisfy both groups of people. AFAICS
>>> snd_pcm_state() can be called both in polling mode and callback mode.
>>
>> I can't do that because I don't quite know neither alsa nor audio in QEMU
>> so I have no idea what to do. Can you give more clues?
>
> Well, as a starting point you might try whether these cases described above
> would still work in callback mode. Maybe it is even working, who knows.

I did some quick test with running MorphOS demo iso with pegasos2 which 
plays a startup sound. Without this patch the sound is choppy when using 
alsa backend but correct with the patch applied. I don't know how to test 
underruns or overruns but since the sound is not choppy with this patch I 
think this is handled better than in poll mode. When stopping and 
restarting QEMU with stop/cont in monitor while sound is playing I once 
got this error after stopping:
alsa: Failed to write 1648 frames from 0x55eb1fe09500
alsa: Reason: File descriptor in bad state
but other than this error sound seems to stop and continue and did not get 
more errors on subsequent start stop. I don't know if this is enough 
testing or what this means but that's the best I could do for now. I think 
since sound is very much broken without this patch this is an improvement 
in any case. If some problem is discovered later it can be fixed but at 
least this makes it usable with alsa without extra command line tweaking 
as the default is completly unusable.

Regards,
BALATON Zoltan

Am 08.04.25 um 14:55 schrieb Christian Schoenebeck:
> On Friday, April 4, 2025 1:34:27 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Apr 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 31, 2025 3:05:24 PM CEST BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2025, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 16, 2025 1:20:46 AM CET BALATON Zoltan wrote:
>>>>>> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
>>>>>> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
>>>>>> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
>>>>>> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
>>>>>> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
>>>>>> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
>>>>>> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
>>>>>> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
>>>>>> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
>>>>>> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
>>>>>> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
>>>>>> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
>>>>>> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
>>>>>> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
>>>>>> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
>>>>>> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
>>>>>> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
>>>>>> playback doesn't have that problem."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
>>>>>> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
>>>>>> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
>>>>>> be fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
>>>>>>  1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>>>> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
>>>>>> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>>>> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
>>>>>> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
>>>>>>  static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
>>>>>>  {
>>>>>>      if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
>>>>>> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
>>>>>> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
>>>>>>          apdo->has_try_poll = true;
>>>>>>      }
>>>>>>  }
>>>>>>
>>>>> Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAICS if polling is not used then no state
>>>>> changes would be handled, no? At least I don't see any snd_pcm_state() call
>>>>> outside of alsa_poll_handler().
>>>> I have no idea but this fixes the problem (and does the same that can be
>>>> also done from command line but nobody can find that command line option)
>>>> so unless somebody has a better idea could this be merged as a fix for
>>>> now?
>>> Well, I understand that if fixes the misbehaviour you encountered. But how
>>> helpful would it be if it then breaks behaviour for other people instead?
>> What behaviour would it break and how?
> There are only a bunch of ALSA states handled right now in the QEMU Alsa
> driver (see alsa_poll_handler()):
>
>     state = snd_pcm_state (hlp->handle);
>     switch (state) {
>     case SND_PCM_STATE_SETUP:
>         alsa_recover (hlp->handle);
>         break;
>
>     case SND_PCM_STATE_XRUN:
>         alsa_recover (hlp->handle);
>         break;
>
>     case SND_PCM_STATE_SUSPENDED:
>         alsa_resume (hlp->handle);
>         break;
>
>     case SND_PCM_STATE_PREPARED:
>         audio_run(hlp->s, "alsa run (prepared)");
>         break;
>
>     case SND_PCM_STATE_RUNNING:
>         audio_run(hlp->s, "alsa run (running)");
>         break;
>
> For instance in poll mode it recovers in case of an xrun, which happens on
> audio output if the audio output data was not delivered by the application in
> time.
>
> The other case is when the system was suspended (standby). It should also
> recover the audio session here.

Hi Christian,

I think the timer based mode works fine. snd_pcm_readi() and
snd_pcm_writei() return -EPIPE in case of a xrun and -ESTRPIPE if a
suspend event occurred. Both cases are handled in alsa_write(). The
-ESTRPIPE case is missing in alsa_read(), which may be a mistake. I
don't think it's possible alsa_read() and alsa_write() get called if the
ALSA system is in state SND_PCM_STATE_SETUP.

The write_loop() example code at
https://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/examples.html in file
test/pcm.c also doesn't use the snd_pcm_state() function. Please have a
look at write_loop() in test/pcm.c and compare it with
write_and_poll_loop() in the same file.

With best regards
Volker

> Now I haven't tested whether these would work in callback mode right now, but
> looking at the code suggests that they might not.
>
>>> I think it would be better to add a 2nd patch that would handle state changes
>>> in callback mode. That would satisfy both groups of people. AFAICS
>>> snd_pcm_state() can be called both in polling mode and callback mode.
>> I can't do that because I don't quite know neither alsa nor audio in QEMU 
>> so I have no idea what to do. Can you give more clues?
> Well, as a starting point you might try whether these cases described above
> would still work in callback mode. Maybe it is even working, who knows.
>
> /Christian
>
>>> Just my 2 cents. Of course it's up to Gerd to decide.
>> If you know it would break something I agree it should be fixed and I can 
>> try but I could not reproduce any breakage and most people likely use 
>> other audio backends so unlikely to encounter problems with alsa.
>>
>> Regards,
>> BALATON Zoltan
>

On Sun, 16 Mar 2025, BALATON Zoltan wrote:
> Quoting Volker Rümelin: "try-poll=on tells the ALSA backend to try to
> use an event loop instead of the audio timer. This works most of the
> time. But the poll event handler in the ALSA backend has a bug. For
> example, if the guest can't provide enough audio frames in time, the
> ALSA buffer is only partly full and the event handler will be called
> again and again on every iteration of the main loop. This increases
> the processor load and the guest has less processor time to provide
> new audio frames in time. I have two examples where a guest can't
> recover from this situation and the guest seems to hang."
>
> One reproducer I've found is booting MorphOS demo iso on
> qemu-system-ppc -machine pegasos2 -audio alsa which should play a
> startup sound but instead it freezes. Even when it does not hang it
> plays choppy sound. Volker suggested using command line to set
> try-poll=off saying: "The try-poll=off arguments are typically
> necessary, because the alsa backend has a design issue with
> try-poll=on. If the guest can't provide enough audio frames, it's
> really unhelpful to ask for new audio frames on every main loop
> iteration until the guest can provide enough audio frames. Timer based
> playback doesn't have that problem."
>
> But users cannot easily find this option and having a non-working
> default is really unhelpful so to make life easier just set it to
> false by default which works until the issue with the alsa backend can
> be fixed.
>
> Signed-off-by: BALATON Zoltan <balaton@eik.bme.hu>
> ---
> This fixes my issue but if somebody has a better fix I'm open to that
> too.

Ping?

> audio/alsaaudio.c | 2 +-
> 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
>
> diff --git a/audio/alsaaudio.c b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> index cacae1ea59..9b6c01c0ef 100644
> --- a/audio/alsaaudio.c
> +++ b/audio/alsaaudio.c
> @@ -899,7 +899,7 @@ static void alsa_enable_in(HWVoiceIn *hw, bool enable)
> static void alsa_init_per_direction(AudiodevAlsaPerDirectionOptions *apdo)
> {
>     if (!apdo->has_try_poll) {
> -        apdo->try_poll = true;
> +        apdo->try_poll = false;
>         apdo->has_try_poll = true;
>     }
> }
>